Unlock Financial Peace: Transform Your Money Mindset
Welcome to the Counter Culture Health Podcast. I'm Doctor. Jen McWaters. And I'm Coach Kaitlin Reed. We're here to help high achieving women overcome mental blocks, find freedom from anxiety, create an abundant life and build the body and life that they deserve and desire. In this weekly podcast, we'll uncover the raw truth about mental health, nutrition, fitness, and beyond. Let's get to it. Hey, everyone. Welcome back to Counter Culture Health.
Jen:Today, we have an amazing guest with us, Brenna Greenwood. Brenna came to Idaho from a small town Washington in 02/2008 to study education at NNU. If you'd asked her about money ten years ago, she probably would have laughed and tried to gracefully leave the conversation. Today, financial literacy is a very big part of her life. She is a member of the board of directors for the Idaho Financial Literacy Coalition and a financial education specialist at CAP Ed Credit Union.
Jen:She spent ten years in high school English and social studies classrooms in the Treasure Valley and now very much enjoys teaching all ages and stages. She lives in Meridian with her husband, kids, and dogs, and in her spare time, she loves to play and coach volleyball and watch movies. At the end of day, her passion is people and helping them be the best version of themselves. I love that. So welcome, Brenna.
Jen:Thanks for coming today.
Brenna:Thank you for having me.
Jen:We are so excited because Keely and I were were saying a minute ago that, you know, we haven't gotten a chance to talk to someone in the financial space yet on this podcast, and we know, like, money is obviously such a big part of everyone's life. It's unavoidable no matter how you feel about it, and we've been just needing to have a conversation to help us have a better understanding of our relationship with money, but also just some practical tools that we can use to improve that relationship and just improve our level of financial literacy and awareness and hopefully also reduce stress because I know you were gonna talk about this, but stress is really tied to money as well. So we are so excited to jump in Yeah. So let's get started. So tell us about what you do, how you help people, and just more about why you went into this and why you love it so much.
Brenna:Yeah, absolutely. Well, couple years ago, I was kind of looking to leave a traditional classroom to be honest, but my passion has always been teaching and coaching people and, how do you do that not in a classroom? That was the question I kept asking myself. So, I saw this position posted by CAP Ed and I applied and to be honest at that point, like the knowledge I had about money was mostly like the trial and error that I had learned to myself, which I think a lot of us go through. But now I have had the opportunity to learn a lot, to apply what I've learned to my own financial situation, which is really cool because now when I share, I'm not just sharing from a knowledge base, but also like a practicality base where like, I've done a lot of this stuff.
Brenna:And that's a really cool place to kind of come from and to be able to meet people where they're at. But, like it said in my bio, I teach all ages and stages. So I teach kindergarten through senior citizen and everywhere in between about financial literacy. I mostly teach in regions 3 And 4 in Idaho, which is basically like the Treasure Valley and the Magic Valley kind of like extended a little bit. But, yeah, I get to the opportunity to offer customized lessons, customized content, even customized curriculum based on each group that I teach.
Brenna:So I get to be a chameleon and I get to help people know a little bit better about money so that they can just do a little bit better with their money. I like to provide as much information as I can, and I still get to teach and I still get to coach and that brings me joy. That's where my heart is. And I think it's an area that affects everyone. So it's pretty cool to have that and to be trusted with that from other people as well.
Jen:I'm so curious just if we can quickly go there. What does it look like to talk to a kindergartener versus a senior citizen about that? Because that's a pretty big gap. So how do you go about educating across the age spectrum?
Brenna:No, you're totally right. I mean, in the kindergarten classroom, we're really just talking basics. Some kids talk their families about money when they're really young and some don't. I know I come from a family where like money was not something we talked about a whole lot while I was growing up. So just like, hey guys, there's like six different things that we do with money on a normal basis and they are earning, saving, spending, donating, borrowing, and investing.
Brenna:And doing lessons kind of based around that and like the real basics or even, you what types of money do we have? We have cash. We have cards, we have checks ish. Know a lot of people don't use them anymore, but, we talk about those kinds of things. And then oftentimes with our older age groups, we'll talk about scams and keeping yourself safe and understanding how to protect yourself.
Brenna:We might talk about, actually right now I'm working on planning a workshop that's kind of open to everyone through CAP Ed that is about things like estate planning and how do you plan for what to do with your money towards the end of your life, and then after, you pass away? Like, what does that look like? I'll be honest, with those kinds of topics, I generally bring in some help. My expertise is very much based in, like, personal finance while you're in the middle of it, not when you're no longer there. But, yeah, it it definitely looks different, and it's different every single teaching appointment too that I that I take looks just slightly different.
Brenna:I love that you're working
Jen:with the kiddos because I know I also did not get any financial literacy education. I think maybe remember learning how to write a check and balance a checkbook. That's maybe the most of it. Definitely didn't learn about investing and borrowing and, you know, like debt and how to manage that correctly. So I love that we're doing more of that for kids.
Jen:And I know we're all moms here, so I'm sure people listening to are like, oh, well, I didn't even think about teaching that I could teach my kindergarten that there's that many ways to use money and start to already give them that language. I think that's so empowering that you guys do that.
Brenna:Yeah, it's really cool to kind of almost have a cyclical nature with financial literacy where there's concepts that you might teach and then you might come back to it six months to a year later, and you might talk about it again, but in a different way or in more depth. And I think that's when kids especially really start to go, oh yeah, I'm like, I know, I got that, heard of that, and they start to get it, which is really cool.
Kaitlin:Yeah, let's jump into the next question. This is something I'm super curious about and haven't really heard of before, but the different money personality types. So, tell us more about that.
Brenna:Yes. Okay, there are a lot of people who kind of believe that everybody has almost a natural inclination for how they think about and deal with their money. Some people will say, oh no, there's six personality types, and oh, there's actually 12, or whatever it is. In my world, I talk about four. All of them can be seen as negative really easily, but they don't have to be.
Brenna:And that's the thing that I hope people take away and remember is that they don't have to be negative. They're basically just like the natural kind of way that we approach money. So the, we use four, they are avoidance, status, worship, and vigilance. So, avoidance would be people who really hate talking about money, like I used to be, where I was like, I'm gonna laugh and gracefully leave the conversation now. Let's not.
Brenna:That's an avoidant person. Avoidant, people are, like, most likely to leave their bills in an unopened stack somewhere in their house. They are most likely to, like, spend or give money without knowing what they have in their bank account, things like that. They just tend to like avoid the concept in total. Some avoidant people even feel like I'm not really that deserving of money, so it makes me uncomfortable when I have it.
Brenna:And that's one type. The next type is status. These are your spenders. These are people who the money I have allows me to lead the type of lifestyle that I want, and if I don't have enough to lead the lifestyle that I want, well, I'm going to have to find more somewhere. Oftentimes, status people are the most likely to have high end items in their closet, most likely to rack up credit card debt, most likely to, like, offer to pay for someone else's coffee or meal when they probably shouldn't based on their budget, but they might do it anyways.
Brenna:The third type is worship. These are people who oftentimes believe that money is a scarce commodity, and there's never enough of it, and you can never stockpile enough, and I'm gonna keep as much as I possibly can. People who have the worship personality tend to, hoard their money and be, like, the least likely to do something fun because then that money won't be there just in case I need it, even if I never actually do. Right? And then the last type is vigilance.
Brenna:And these are people that generally are really worried about having other people involved with their money. So, they're actually most likely to keep their money under a mattress instead of in a trusted financial institution. They generally are very leery of, like, investing and letting their money grow or work for them on their behalf. And they don't really like when people are, like, questioning them about their money or what they do. Now I will say that there are positives to a lot of these.
Brenna:Right? So, people who who are vigilant tend to be pretty savvy with their money. It's just that they, like, don't let other people into their financial situation so much. People who are money worshippers are probably really great at saving money. They just need to remember to have fun too sometimes.
Brenna:Yeah, people with status, they know how to have fun. They often are really great at talking to people openly about money, but they probably need to learn a little bit of like self control. Right? And avoidance is a tough one. Avoidance is pretty respectful of other people's money situation, and if they can learn how to manage their money situation in a healthy way, they also can do pretty well on their own.
Brenna:But there generally has to be, like, some acceptance of, like, it's okay for me to have money. It's okay for me to use my money wisely. Yes, I have to open my bills. And I say this as someone who resonates with two of these personality types more than any other. I'm starting to kind of feel a little bit of a third, but my whole life has been about avoidance and status.
Brenna:Right? So, like, I actually do have a stack of unopened bills on the table at home, because I work really hard for my money, and I don't like seeing how quickly it leaves me. And so, yeah, I'm avoidant in a lot of ways. I also, I really like to spend money. I would classify myself as a spender.
Brenna:Gotten myself into trouble before spending more than what I actually had. And the older I get, the more I have, like, just a little bit of worship, which I'm appreciative of because it means that I take the time to save. But, it's okay if you resonate with more than one. Some people resonate with all four. It just depends on who you are as a person.
Jen:I'm curious too, when you are married or partner with someone, you've mentioned this and I've met you before, how does that play And is that maybe one of the main driving forces of conflict in a marriage around money is because you have a different personality type?
Brenna:Yeah, absolutely. I mean, okay, so money, it's actually like the number two reason why married couples break up. The first is infidelity, the second is money, and it's actually the number one reason why all relationships as a whole tend to end this is like friendships, every relationship that exists, right? Having a different mindset or personality about money than your partner can be a real source of, like, tension and stress in your relationship, especially if you, like, have someone who's avoid it and is like, I'd really rather not talk about our money. Hopefully, it'll all figure itself out and everything will be fine.
Brenna:And someone who is a money worshiper, who's like, what are you doing? We have to keep track of this stuff. We have to pinch every penny we can. Like, those two people, if they're not really openly communicating and having a plan and even understanding each other's personality, I mean, can you imagine what that would do to our relationship to not be open in those situations. I mean, gosh, it would be really difficult.
Jen:I'll speak to that too, I'll Caitlin, I'm sorry, think you wanted to say something as well. But yeah, like I'm more of a spender. My husband's more of the saver. He's the budgeter. And to make it work, it requires really open communication and willingness on both people's sides to see the person's perspective rather than thinking your personality type is the right way to handle money and theirs is the wrong way.
Jen:Right. Being able to meet in the middle and see the value and what each other brings, I think makes a huge difference because I could see how easy it could be such a source of tension and conflict for people.
Kaitlin:Yeah. I was just gonna say, like, excuse me, how important is this to talk about, like, from the beginning of a of a relationship rather than when you're deep in it. But I'm wondering, it's probably, I mean, that's a tough conversation to have, like, right out of the gate when you're meeting someone too, right?
Brenna:It is, and even then, like if you consider, I'm not gonna lie, I've been out of the dating world for a long time, okay, but I know people who are still in the middle of dating and trying to navigate those waters, And people in today's world, like the numbers are just really different about like how often one person pays for a date, right? And so even then, like let's have the conversation about what the expectation is just on the dating side of things. Like, are we splitting the check? Are we gonna take turns paying for dates? What's the expectation about, like, a cost of a date?
Brenna:Is it $50? Is it a hundred dollars? I think when you start off being able to be, like, open about these conversations, your relationship's probably gonna be healthier in the long run because you set the standard of, like, this is something we're really open with and willing to talk about. Gosh, what was the number that I saw the other day? It was like, if you are arguing over personal finance issues on a weekly basis as a married couple, it actually increases the likelihood of divorce by like thirty percent.
Brenna:Right? And so, what if instead of arguing because there is tension and there is stress and we've been reducing intimacy because I don't feel like I could talk to you about these things and there's an emotional distance there, what if we normalized having the conversation without arguing about it? Just saying like, hey, this is the way that I approach things. If you need me to approach things in a different way, I'm gonna need to know about that in order for this to work out.
Jen:Yeah. And, Brenna, something you taught me last time we were talking on a panel together last month, which was super fun, and I, by the way, have used this in my personal life, is you recommended for people that are a combo maybe like savers and spenders. Instead of talking about the budget plan or the monthly budget meeting, it's like the spending plan. And I love that. So told my spouse, like, I have
Brenna:a new name for an or
Jen:a monthly budget meeting. We're no longer on the budget. It is the spending plan or the spending meeting. He's like, okay. Legitimately,
Brenna:little, like, change has helped my psychology around money so much. Like, as a spender, if you are like, we're going on a budget. I'm like, I don't want to go on a diet. Right? Like, it's the same kind of idea.
Brenna:It's it's this idea of, like, deprivation and starvation and no french fries, I hate it. So instead of focusing on, like, what you can't have because of a budget, like saying, we're coming up with a spending plan is like, I told you I'm a spender. Brenna, you get to spend your money. You just have to have a plan for it. And I'm like, yes.
Brenna:Woo. Let's spend it. And you know what? I might choose to spend it on savings. Right?
Brenna:But, like, I'm still choosing. I'm making a plan, and I'm spending it where I want it to go. And that's the entire point of a budget. It's not deprivation. It's helping you make the choices for your goals and your priorities that's actually going to like bring you success.
Brenna:And it's, it's one of my favorite things I've ever learned because it's made a massive difference for for me personally.
Kaitlin:Yeah, I connected that so well because I work in the nutrition and fitness space. And so I totally get the analogy that you just gave because it makes people, it like brings out the rebellion in them, right?
Brenna:If
Kaitlin:you tell them something, it makes them, like that urge or desire, increase even more and want it even more and makes them rebel against what they should be doing. So I think that fits with this scenario as well, and the money.
Brenna:Yeah, it's like a hyper fixation thing. Like, you tell me I can't have my gas station snacks when I go to the gas station, and all I'm gonna want every time I go to the gas station is gas station snacks, and that might my nutrition plan, but it's also might hurt my wallet. So, yeah, I actually, I think there are so many correlations between like nutrition, health, exercise, and how your brain, how your attitude works towards money as well. Like so many correlations.
Kaitlin:Yes. Jen and I, kind of talked about this a little bit last week because I brought that up the connection between your relationship with food and exercise and body and relationship with money. Just working with people, I have found that there's just such a tight correlation with that. Like specifically, let's say, like, binge eaters and emotional eaters have a tendency towards one way of how they are with their money compared to somebody that is more restrictive with their eating or like exercising, they're the same way with their money. So I think that connection is very, very fascinating.
Brenna:Yeah, and our money personalities can actually come from like a myriad of places. Right? So, like, sometimes it's like watching others' behavior even in childhood. So there's a good chance that my tendency towards avoidance, especially where I was younger, came from the fact that my family didn't really talk about money all that much. So I became avoidant because that was like the example that I have, and it wasn't like we were like, money?
Brenna:Oh, we don't talk about that. It was just like not a conversation that naturally came up. It was just my parents were like, we're dealing with it. You don't have to. Good for you.
Brenna:And and so that came from, like, my family. But it can also be from, like, watching other people later in life and being like, oh, don't want that to be my situation. They can come from current or past experiences. I actually have someone close to me who in college had like an embarrassing experience where they were trying to go out to eat with friends and they had to call their parent and say like, can you put some money in my account because I don't have any there and we're trying to eat and, they said I'm never gonna be in that situation again and they're crow or a money worshipper. I I associate birds with all four of the personalities.
Brenna:I think it makes it a little bit more fun. So worship is a crow, avoidance is an ostrich, sticking their head in the sand kind of an idea. Status is a peacock, and vigilance is an owl, right?
Kaitlin:So,
Brenna:there's lots of different places where those birds come from, but they begin in childhood. I will also say they're not static. Like, your personality, your attitude towards money can change over time. It's just like the basic natural way that you tend to approach money.
Kaitlin:Yeah, that was going to be one of my questions too, with the personality types. If you like work with people to change that or like work with them with how they are.
Brenna:Yeah, that's a really good question. I think honestly, I think you kind of have to do a little bit of both, Right? So I think the major benefit of like understanding what your personality is, is twofold. Number one, you you can work more positively with who you are naturally as a person. So I know I'm a spender.
Brenna:I have to say, you're gonna get some fun, impulsive money in your budget, because you know you're gonna do it anyways, and if I don't plan for it, then I'm out that money that I was supposed to be doing something else with, right? So I can positively approach my personality and say, hey, you know, in our spending plan, we get $30 to spend on super impulsive last minute things this month. Right? And I can go, oh, you know, when I was shopping on Amazon at 02:00 in the morning because I couldn't sleep, like, I bought a thing. And you know what?
Brenna:That's okay. Then we're not not only beating ourselves up over not doing the plan, but we're not then we're beating ourselves up about the purchase, and should I return it? We're like, you don't have to do that because you go, hey, you know, I yeah. I bought the thing, but it was in my plan, and we're fine. It just means I can't do another one for the next fifteen days, whatever it is.
Brenna:So you can approach yourself more positively in that way. And the other thing is you can actually spot harmful behaviors that you have because of your innate attitude towards money and take steps to make behavioral changes. So I am avoidant. I have stacks of unopened bills at home, but I actually, like, put a calendar reminder on my phone for the day after payday, every single day that, like, screams at me, like, you have to go sit down and open your bills and make sure that your bills get paid. And I have made that a habit.
Brenna:And I I might be like, oh, I hate doing this, but I have it like scheduled and I can go hate doing it for an hour, or I can literally dread it every single day of the month, but I don't have to do that if I've made the habit of making it happen because that's the healthy thing to do.
Jen:Yeah. And I love that's more accepting too because I think it could be easy to assume you have to completely change to the other extreme, right? Or that you don't get to enjoy the thing you love to do with money if you're little spender. So, I love that it has room for that. That's middle path approach of let's work with what you naturally already do.
Jen:Like you can be maybe an impulsive planner in a way, like plan your impulsivity. Like you said, budget for impulsivity, which I love, rather than saying you don't do that anymore and that's bad. You know, I think that's Yeah. Well, because that's why people don't wanna talk about money so often, even in in coaching, like, because it's like they're so worried. It's like you're gonna, you know, see all the icky stuff that I do or judge me for all the things I do or, you know, they already have shame around it.
Jen:And then sometimes they some people are gonna come in and say, like, you can't do that. You need to stop that rather than, hey, like, let's work with the way that you naturally are. So I just love that because it's such a different refreshing approach than what sometimes we hear.
Brenna:Yeah. I think if you take it back and like equate it to dieting, right? Like, when someone goes on a really restrictive diet and they mess up. Right? They often either, like, completely and totally beat themselves up over it, or they go, well, I failed.
Brenna:See? Diets don't work. I won't be on one anymore, and they move on. But, like, neither of those situations are healthy for our whole person. And so to say, like, hey, like, I know who I am as a person.
Brenna:Maybe I need moderation. Maybe I do need to be able to, like, have french fries during a week or like a fancy coffee on a Friday, and that's okay for my diet plan if I'm doing all of these other things at every other point of the week. I think it's the same thing with your money. Like I can spend on fun things. I can go out to eat.
Brenna:I can do these things. I just have to be wary of how much and when it gets out of control and outside of the plan that I have. That's when it becomes something that it's like, well, that's not healthy anymore and we need to change those habits.
Kaitlin:Yep, I always tell people it's the amount and the frequency that matters, not like the actual thing.
Brenna:Exactly.
Jen:Yep. So, let's shift into talking about scarcity mindset because you've hinted at this a little bit and talking
Brenna:about the
Jen:types of personality. Talk to us about that. How do you talk to people about that? How would you maybe define scarcity mindset? And then how does it show up in our lives?
Jen:Some people don't even know that that's how they live their life. So it could be so normalized for them. So teach us about that a little bit.
Brenna:Yeah. So, scarcity mindset actually was like developed as like a financial mindset concept, and then it kind of morphed into other areas of life as well. But scarcity mindset is like the internalized fear of not or never having enough money, regardless of your actual financial situation. And that generally becomes like a hyper fixation or worry about like what you lack. When that happens, it can lead to like higher amounts of stress.
Brenna:So it's something like money is a major source of stress for like sixty six percent of adults, that's from Forbes, and, forty seven percent of adults say that money has had a negative impact on their mental health. That's from Bankrate. But basically, the higher stress and the poor decision making, whether it's like, don't have enough, so I have to increase my income. So I'm gonna take out credit cards, and I'm gonna rack up debt so that I feel like I have more, even though I know I'm gonna have to pay it back at some point, but like I'll figure that out, right? Those kinds of things kind of surround what happens when you allow like a scarcity mindset to be the pervasive mindset that you have about money.
Brenna:It includes, I don't know if I want to say symptoms, but like emotional or impulsive spending can be a symptom of scarcity mindset. Like, I need more stuff, so I'll buy more things because then it looks like I have more money. That's very much like a status personality type at its worst. There can be, like, difficulty discussing finances with your partner, and you get avoidant of those situations. That can be a scarcity mindset, anxiety about your financial security in the future.
Brenna:That can be like vigilance, or it could be like a worship kind of a situation, feeling guilt when you spend money on yourself. All of those are like symptoms, almost, of like a scarcity mindset, and then comparison. Honestly, like a really big piece of scarcity mindset is this idea of like comparison, and then there's also almost an element of like self fulfilling prophecy, right? Like if I'm constantly focused on the things that I don't have, then I'm not gonna be able to get by with the things that I do have. In fact, I was was talking with someone the other day, and one of the things that they said was like, oh, well, when it comes to money, you can't be anxious and creative at the same time.
Brenna:Like, you can't be worried about your money and have the mental energy to, like, creatively problem solve, hold on to information that you learn about money, control your impulses, because you're so wrapped up in being anxious. Right? So that can be a really difficult place to find yourself is this idea of scarcity mindset.
Jen:Brenna, what about overworking? Because I feel like I've seen that happen too, Like, they actually have a fine bank account, but they just never feel safe enough with that number. So they're just workaholics. Like I've had, you know, people struggle with that. Is that something you see too?
Brenna:Oh, 100%. Scarcity mindset doesn't just affect people who actually have financial scarcity, because that's like a real thing, right? There actually are people who don't have enough for the lifestyle that they have, whether it's that housing prices in their area are too high, whatever it is. Are there programs and places that they can get help with that, or solutions like getting a roommate? Like, sure.
Brenna:That's fine. We can talk about that, right? But scarcity mindset affects so many people who are also like actually financially secure. One of my co workers went to a conference earlier this week and was at a session where the researchers, and they did really in-depth research on this, basically said that for anyone making like less than $200,000 a year, There's this like, I just need someone to tell me what to do with my money because I don't really know what to do with it, and I'm not making enough, and I don't really know where to put it to make it work for me, and am I spending it where I should? And there's a lot of like stress and questions about how to handle your money, even if you're someone who makes what is considered like a very livable amount.
Brenna:I would say that the workaholic piece is often like that worship mindset. Right? Like, I'm the most likely to be like, oh, yeah. I can jump back on the clock really quick because that'll give me five minutes of overtime or whatever it is. But it doesn't mean that that's necessarily what they should be doing.
Brenna:Right? Like, they might have enough and not need to be working, but feel like they need to work just because, then I could do x y z with my money. And so yeah, I've seen that as well for sure.
Kaitlin:Where does that stem from? Is that, you kind of touched on that earlier, but like going back to childhood or maybe a situation that they experienced or?
Brenna:Yeah, I think it can be either. So, I think it could be like my family didn't actually have enough, right? And so, now I do everything I can to make sure that I have enough and I'm taken care of. It could be like my family had plenty, but I don't really know what I'm doing, and I don't know if I'm gonna have plenty, what if I'm doing this wrong? It could be that you saw something happen to someone that you care about.
Brenna:Maybe it was like a friend, maybe it was like a college roommate, and you're going, I don't want that to be my situation, so I'm gonna have to work really hard to make sure that I have enough, or maybe you found yourself with that at some point in your life, and you worked really hard to crawl out of it, but going, I'm never going to be in that place again. And so then you find yourself hyper fixating on this like need for more money no matter what you do. It can come from a lot of places generally. Scarcity mindset is like not a healthy place to be in, right? Because for most people there are solutions that will work for them, at least to an extent.
Brenna:There are resources that can help them, and it's about like finding what actually works, but I also equate it to, you know, how people can watch hours and hours and hours of like Netflix on a weekend and then go, I don't have time. Right? Like legitimately, I think that sometimes we look at our lives and we go, well this is my life and I have to afford this life, and if I want my life to change then I have to be able to afford more. And we don't say like, where could I look at in my life where I could actually pull back on my spending? I could actually change the way that I approach that, or maybe I could do that myself, and then it wouldn't cost me the money.
Brenna:Like, I'm not saying that we have to give everything up, but I'm saying that sometimes we just need to take, like, an honest stock of what's actually going on because scarcity mindset more than anything, I think is a psychology thing, right? It's something that like we have to work with our brains to overcome scarcity mindset and realize that like there are solutions, there are resources, there are things that we can do to kind of overcome that scarcity mindset instead of just staying in it and allowing the worry and the stress to affect our entire life.
Jen:I agree, and I would add too, just I think that's where I don't want to oversimplify solutions, but I think when you lean into gratitude as well and focus in on what you do have, that also is a way to counteract that scarcity because it can be so easy to be so focused on money because we need it. We need it all day long. Everything we do, that's the exchange. That's the currency of life. Right?
Jen:Yeah. But if we can practice gratitude and contentment, that helps. And that especially helps the people who have, like you said, have the security, but they just keep striving for more because the, you know, arrival fallacy is very real where you you just won't ever feel like you actually have enough if that's the mindset that you live in. So I feel like gratitude if you lean into that, that's gonna help counteract that, and we need more of that in our culture As we all know, we are like we are in a rich nation. Everyone here has more than most people have on the planet.
Brenna:That's true. But we
Jen:don't feel like that. And that's not to say there aren't need and that we don't have stress with money and have a hard time paying mortgages and all that. Right? And we still have so much. And sometimes we just need to just refocus the flashlight a little bit, and that also helps to decrease the money scarcity and the stress.
Brenna:Yeah. I think another thing, and this is something I teach all the time to every age group I teach. Anytime that I'm teaching about budgeting, especially, like, our culture thinks about money in a very backwards way. Right? Like I can be worried a % of the time because I don't have any money in the bank.
Brenna:I'm living paycheck to paycheck. But in some ways, I'm living that way because my mindset surrounding the way that I assign my dollars is very backwards from what actually brings like successful money management. We say it super simply, we say pay yourself first. Right? So when you get paid, yes, you have to have enough to cover like your basic human needs, right?
Brenna:You need shelter, you need food, you need water, you need clothing, etc. But how often do we get paid, pay bills, have fun, save what's left over? And how much is generally left over, especially if you're a spender, right? So what if we like flipped it on its head and we said, I'm gonna get paid and I'm gonna know that I have money over what my bills cost, and I'm gonna set part of that money aside first, and then I'm gonna pay my bills, and then I'm gonna have all my fun with what's left over, but I know that I've already saved. So I know that like I'm making progress toward the vacation that I wanna take.
Brenna:I have money in an emergency account just in case my tire pops. I have like money set aside for when I need it in my future. Like that shift can really, really make a difference as far as I'm scared I'm not gonna have enough. And like, I know that even if something goes wrong, it's not going to flatten me. And I think that is also something that can, again, it's this like shift in the culture of like, our culture is like, we have to have more, and do we really?
Brenna:And then our culture is also like, save what's left over, but can we change it? So it really is kind of fighting against the programming that we're exposed to all the time.
Kaitlin:Yeah, so with that, what are some of your favorite money management tools and resources
Brenna:Yeah.
Kaitlin:That you teach and use, and that people can start implementing?
Brenna:Yeah. Well, I think the most common are, like, your online banking app, which I think can be really helpful. Many of them have, like, budgeting tools built in. That's an awesome option. Many of them have, like, credit score tracking and solutions for, like, how to work on your credit score built in.
Brenna:That's awesome. I know where I work, we have those. And then we also have a really cool app that's built for like our youth and young adult accounts too. So like for people who have kids and are trying to teach their kids about money early, that app does like loans, it does allowances, it does like, you can assign your kids tasks about learning about money, like videos and things like that. I think those are really cool, and helpful.
Brenna:If you're not, if you're only using your online banking app to like look at your balance. Right? And let's be honest, doing that is not a valid budgeting tool, simply because sometimes you forget about automatic payments that are already set up. Sometimes you bought something online a week ago, but it hasn't shipped yet, so it hasn't charged you yet, and then count on that money being there, but it's actually already not there. I think a budgeting app can be really helpful with that because you can put things in as you go.
Brenna:There are a ton of them out there. Rocket Money, NerdWallet, EveryDollar, Albert. Some of them are free, some of them are not. But I usually encourage people is, like, do a little bit of research. Maybe try a couple out and see which one, like, resonates with you.
Brenna:Because what works for me, they call it personal finance for a reason. Right? It's it's very personal. It's very individual. Using the types of accounts you have both at your financial institution and things potentially offered through your employer or through, like, outside entities can be really helpful, like a tax advantaged accounts, ESAs, HSAs, FSAs can all be really helpful.
Brenna:A lot of states have five twenty nine programs, which are fantastic college savings programs. A lot of them can be rolled into like Roth IRAs if you don't use them. So, understanding those resources and leveraging them can save a lot of dollars there. Another resource is, now granted, this is for people who choose this path, is a fiduciary. So, fiduciary is like a financial advisor or financial planner who has to work in the best interest of the consumer that they're working with.
Brenna:So they can't make investments or trades based on like what they're going to get out of it. They have to think of the person they're working with first. So they always say if you're going to work with an advisor or a planner, make sure they're a fiduciary. There are some free financial counseling services out there, especially for people who find themselves in significant debt that they're struggling to get out of, or they have no idea where to start with a budget. But if you're in that case too, I would really recommend you reach out to your financial institution.
Brenna:Now I'm not going to say that every financial institution does a great job, but I will say that if your financial institution isn't even willing to sit down with you and have a conversation with you about your money, you might be at the wrong one. And that's putting it really bluntly, but your financial institution is supposed to be a tool and a resource and a help for you. And if they are not that, then there are lots of really great options out there for who you can work with. The National Jumpstart Coalition has tons of free training out there for, like, both teachers and consumers and even kids, and I think they're awesome. There are some great books out there.
Brenna:One of my favorite acts for managing your money well is using cash as much as possible instead of invisible money, right, because it hurts more to hand over a 20 than it does to tap a card. So that can be really helpful leveraging your online banking system. There are some places where you can have as many free accounts as you want. So what if I open six different pre savings accounts and, like, tagged them all different things that I'm saving for, and then did transactions, transfers, even automatic transfers, which is a really helpful tool, to put money into each of those things each month, and then I'm making the progress I want to make. And this month, if I don't have enough to contribute to all six, then I pick my priorities.
Brenna:It's kind of like the envelope system, but through your bank.
Jen:I love that. We use that and we like it a lot.
Brenna:Yeah, that can be really helpful. Books that I might recommend are like Rich Dad Poor Dad by Robert Kiyosaki. One of them is called Broke Millennial Talks Money, and that one's by Aaron Lowry. The Psychology of Money, which is by Morgan Housel. That's a good one.
Brenna:And I've heard, Why Didn't They Teach Me This in School by Carrie Siegel is also a good book. I just haven't read that one. I haven't read the entirety of all the books I just mentioned, but I've read pieces and parts and know that there's some good stuff in there. Yeah, there are so many, there are so many tools and resources out there available, and a lot of them are very, very free, or close to free. I know CAP Ed, we have a ton of, like, free learning resources on our website that you don't have to be a member.
Brenna:You don't have to log in. You don't have to put in any information. You just get to go learn about money through, like, super cheesy animated videos and and things like that, which is not for everyone, and I realize that. But, but I think there are things out there for everybody. And the reality is, like, until you take the step to go know better, you can't do any better.
Brenna:Like you might luckily fall into doing better because you tried the right thing, But when you know better, you can do better. And like, if we're being really honest, one of the most valuable resources when it comes to anything having to do with money is time. And so the sooner that you can learn to know better so that you can do better, the more improvement you're going to start to see, and you're going to be able to enjoy that improvement for longer.
Jen:So I'm wondering, Caitlin, I know we had this question we want to ask about the bank accounts and we're a little short on time. So is it is it okay for you guys if we touch on that real quick?
Brenna:Yeah, that's fine. Yeah. Just because it's such one.
Jen:It's so hot, and I just I want your hot take on it because I've had clients where this comes up and, I mean, I have my opinions on it from my own kind of philosophy, but I'm curious if you have an objective opinion on that of of I think particularly when you are a couple who's living together and then especially when you're married and I think it's even more complicated when you have a child. But what's your opinion about partners having separate versus a joint bank account when it comes to paying for things? Because it comes up a lot.
Brenna:It does. That's actually a really fantastic question. Okay, so in The United States, I'll start by saying this, in The United States, I think it's eighty percent of all married couples have at least part of their earnings or expenditures shared to some degree. May not be everything. Only twenty percent of couples in The United States keep everything completely separate.
Brenna:Okay? What I will say is that post COVID, thirty two percent of couples have what they called financial infidelity, which means that they have secret accounts, hidden credit card debts, they're hiding purchases from their partner. Thirty two percent is like quite a bit, right? And so just like I think the conversation about your money personality is really important in any kind of relationship, and I think that money transparency is really important in any relationship, I think the same is true for how you deal with your finances. So some people combine everything, and if that works for them, more power to them, right?
Brenna:Some things that I've seen with that is that like we combine everything, but he is the one that does all the budgeting and the bill paying and things like that. And so I feel like I can't really spend money or do things that I want to do with the money because he handles all of it, and I feel like I need to ask, right? That's not always healthy for relationships. On the other side of the coin, it might be, well, if we share everything and I say, oh, I want to do this for myself, and they say, well, but I want to do this, and we don't agree on what that is, that can be another point of tension, especially if there's only so much money available if we don't agree on how to use it. I think keeping everything separate is also really hard.
Brenna:I think unless you do a really, really good job of dividing expenses, that can create a lot of bitterness. And so really, I think, I think the greatest solution is to figure out what's going to work for you as a couple. Right? So like full transparency, like my husband and I, have separate accounts, but we both have access to each other's accounts. We both know exactly what we're paying for out of our accounts.
Brenna:We might have a shared account where we put money for kids stuff. And yes, there's like leftovers. Right? So like, if I'm not a gamer. My husband's a gamer.
Brenna:Okay? I don't want to buy an Xbox. I'm not into it. I don't want to buy games. I don't need a new controller.
Brenna:None of that is in my realm, right? And so, sometimes keeping things separate is saying like, if there's something that I want that I know that my partner is like not interested or not into, then yeah, we have all the shared stuff, and I'm not going to lie, like it would probably be a lot easier if we had a shared account for all, like a third account for all that stuff, put it into that account, and then kept the other pieces separate. That's not how we do it right now. Who knows? Maybe we'll change things in the future.
Brenna:But, like, that means that he's working on buying the gaming stuff out of his money that isn't already spent on family expenses, right? And if we both want to play volleyball, then we both play into it. And if I want to go on a vacation, then I'll work on paying for that, but that's like not a family vacation. That would be very different. We would do that together.
Brenna:So it has become very, first of all, we try to be very transparent about it. This is what I want. This is my goal. This is what I'm working on. That's why you see XYZ because I have access to every single account we have.
Brenna:So does he. There's no secret accounts anywhere. We're not the 32%. But, yeah, I think that you just have to talk about it, and you have to figure it out, and you have to say, what's going work for our family? And if you try something and it's not working, you actually have to say like, hey, this is not working for me, right?
Brenna:Just like if you're if you're like a young person and you're in college and your friends are constantly like, let's go get coffee. Let's go out for drinks. Let's go to like, you're like, I can't do that. Then you have to say like, hey, I would love to come with you. Like, financially, I'm not in a place that I can do that right now.
Brenna:I'm not saying this to make you feel bad or make you feel like you have to pay for me to come with you. I'm telling you so that you understand, like, I actually do wanna hang out with you. I just can't right now. Please invite me next time because I'm gonna work on saving some so that next month I can I can go do this with you? We don't have those kinds of conversations as,
Kaitlin:a
Brenna:normal thing, but I think that it would be healthy if we did.
Jen:Yeah. And I think a lot of it is the why behind why you're having separate accounts that really matters because I've seen it in a very control strategy for people where it's like, this is my money. I personally believe that when you're married, you're one together. So that includes money for us. So we do the one thing.
Jen:But, like, to your point, we have the, you know, virtual envelope. So we have, like, fun money for me and funding fun money for him. We don't
Brenna:have 2,000,000,000.
Jen:Same idea. Right? You don't have to then be on account of how you spend your fun money. That's your money to just do what you want with. But it's all transparent, and it's all in the same, you know, bank account for us.
Jen:But I think the why is important because I think I've seen it not work out when people have separate and it's because it's a control strategy or because they have scarcity mindset and it becomes a way of controlling the finances versus working as a team. And so, think that's important because that's where I've seen it become a conflict for people or a thing of like, well, you make less and I make more. I'm gonna pay for this and, you know, you have to pay for that or we have to split it even though you make 30% less than me and we have to still do it fiftyfifty. It just gets weird. And to me, gets so much complexity when there doesn't have to be so much complexity on something basic.
Jen:So I think it's about that evaluation. Like you said, it's like what works for you guys, but also what's the reason behind it? And is that a healthy reason or is it because you're trying to hide how you spend your money, or because you want to control how the money is spent? That's a conversation that needs to happen.
Brenna:Right, and just to throw it out there, like, I know there are a lot of people out there where they might be a one income household. Like, you might stay home with the kids while someone like your partner or your spouse works, and there is nothing wrong with that. But like, there also has to be acknowledgment that like, we're all trying to work together to make sure that the family is in a healthy place and that things are working. And so you can't just say like, oh, well, I make all the money, so I get to decide what to do with it, because you're not really working. Because let's be honest, like, yes you are.
Brenna:Yes, you are working. You're still contributing. You're still doing things for the family, and so, like, in that case, like, you don't really have a choice to have separate bank accounts. Right? But they're, like, the acknowledgment of, like, if we're both working for the health of the family, then we're both paying for the health of the family because we are on the same team.
Brenna:I think that's huge. And I think that you decide to what degree you're working together. Right? If if I make 30% more than you, then maybe I pay 70% and you pay 30% instead of going fiftyfifty. But even then, I feel like getting down into the like super nitty gritty of it is a really easy way to create resentment.
Brenna:Yes. When it comes to money, because that's that's real. That's like a real, real thing in relationships is the, well, I'm not going to pay for that and I make more, so too bad for you. It's like quickest way to create a lot of resentment. Does that answer
Kaitlin:your question? Yeah, just like you said, full transparency, you know, and it will help a ton and solve a lot of problems. Yeah.
Brenna:Well, wrapping
Kaitlin:go ahead.
Brenna:Sorry. Really, like, I actually work with someone who was like, oh, I would totally be okay with us, like, not sharing accounts and keeping things separate and things like that. But, like, how would you feel if your partner hid a large purchase from you? Because they felt like you wouldn't approve. And then, like, you kind of have to put yourself in their shoes, too, right?
Brenna:And say, like, well, if I make a big purchase and I try to hide it from them because I feel like they would be disapproving, there is a big difference between me saying, hey. Don't look at the bank account for the next couple days because I bought you a birthday present, and I don't want you to know what it is. There's a really big difference between that and, like, oh, yeah. Sorry. Didn't tell you that I spent $800 on a thing because I wanted to.
Brenna:Oops.
Jen:Like Right.
Brenna:Huge difference.
Jen:Yeah. And it like like you guys said, all this so much can be solved just by good communication and transparency and honesty. So much of money stuff is connected to those issues more than anything. It's not really about the money. It's about the relationship and the communication and your own stuff that you have going on with money too.
Brenna:Yeah. Totally.
Kaitlin:Yeah. So final question to wrap things up. What would what advice would you give someone who is scared to reach out for help in the area of their finances, struggling with finances.
Jen:Shameful, Yeah.
Kaitlin:Shame, guilt. I
Brenna:think I would say I really get how you're feeling because I've been there. And I think if you really take an honest look at, like, your entire life, I think we've all been made to feel small or shameful about our money at some point in our life. And so the first thing I would say is you are not alone in that feeling, and it is not wrong for you to be feeling that feeling. But you do not have to stay in any kind of muck that's been created around you and your finances. Like, if you do one thing today that sets you up for more success tomorrow, then tomorrow you can do it again.
Brenna:And the day after that, you can build on it a little bit and do it again. And all of a sudden, you will find yourself in a place where you do find improvement, and you do find room to breathe, and you do find space to run eventually. And so, I think the biggest thing is I would say, like, there is no shame in not knowing, because unfortunately, no one taught you. But you don't have to stay there. Like, you can know better.
Brenna:You can do better. It is never a hopeless situation. There's always something that can be done. So I know that reaching out is scary, but the sooner that you do it, the better that you can move forward.
Jen:I totally agree.
Kaitlin:So powerful. We always have choice. Yes.
Brenna:You don't have to live in fear. Absolutely. Yeah.
Jen:So I know Caitlin's gonna wrap this up a bit. Brenna, I know we didn't have it on listed here, but if people want to connect with you and maybe really resonate with you, is there a way that they can do that? I know that you are local to Idaho.
Brenna:I am.
Jen:Yeah. So how can people do that?
Brenna:Yes. Okay. Well, so for people who are in Idaho, there is information about me and what I do on CAPED's website. It's CAPEDcu.com. There's a form that can be filled out on the website that comes to me.
Brenna:My contact information is on there. If people wanna contact me via email, it is Brenna, B R E N N A, dot Greenwood, just like it sounds, capedcu dot com. I do have social media, so I'm out there. A lot of my social media isn't strictly financial education based. It's more like based on my life, but that doesn't mean that I wouldn't be willing to have a conversation out there with someone.
Brenna:So LinkedIn, Instagram. I'm really open to talking to people. I'll just say that. I am technically a certified financial counselor, but it's like a baby certification. So I don't take individual appointments with people to help them with their individual finances, but I am more than willing to have conversations about what I think, what other people think, etc.
Kaitlin:Amazing. Such a great conversation today. Thank you so much for joining us and sharing your knowledge, passion about money, something that needs to be talked about more, I would say. So thank you so much for doing that. And thank you all for tuning in for another episode of Counter Culture Health.
Kaitlin:You can like, subscribe, rate all the things, share this episode with someone that you know that may be struggling financially or, you know, relationship issues around money, just to help and support them through this. So thanks again, and we will see you next week.
Jen:Thanks for joining us on the Counter Culture Health podcast. To support this show, please rate, review, and share with your friends and family. If you want to be reminded of new episodes, click the subscribe button on your preferred podcast player. You can find me Jen at awaken.holistic.health and at awakeningholistichealth.com.
Kaitlin:And me, Kaitlin at Kaitlin Reed wellness and kaitlinReedWellness.com. The content of the show is for educational and informational purposes only. As always, talk to your doctor and health team. See you next time.
